Ellen: First of all, I want to say what an honor this is for me. I love The Four Agreements so much that it feels like my book. It feels so personal.

don Miguel: We can say it's your book.

Ellen: Okay, do I get residuals? Do I get any money at all?

don Miguel: Well, we'd have to give it to everybody because it's everybody's book. 

Ellen: As soon as I read it, I felt that if I applied these four agreements, I really could change my life, and I did start noticing a difference. Why?

don Miguel: What it changed is the story of your life. Whatever you perceive, you always make a story with yourself as the main character, and that dictates your life. Then when you read The Four Agreements, you hear another voice beneath the story, the voice that comes from your integrity, your spirit. And by hearing that voice, you know how good and how great you are. Most of the time the voice of the spirit is silent and the voice of the internal storyteller is very loud. It's always saying, Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it—and taking everything personally. When you read The Four Agreements, you're reminded of what you knew so long ago.

Ellen: But some people just don't get it. I get angry at people who say, "Oh, that's so simple." Well, it is simple. But why don't they see how powerful it is?

don Miguel: They are afraid. The truth is simple—you have to experience it. Fear says, Don't trust it, it's safer for you to suffer.

Ellen: So many people prefer to live in drama because it's comfortable. It's like someone staying in a bad marriage or relationship—it's actually easier to stay because they know what to expect every day, versus leaving and not knowing what to expect.

don Miguel: They've practiced being the way they are for years and years, and they know exactly how to do it. They feel safe when they suffer. When they go into the unknown, they feel fear. Happiness is unknown. Love is unknown. To open the heart in trust is unknown. They say love hurts. It doesn't have to.

Ellen: I do believe that. But why aren't love and acceptance and trust more powerful than the other side? Why is the world so full of darkness?

don Miguel: People like to say that the conflict is between good and evil. The real conflict is between truth and lies. Most of the stories we create are based on lies. If we could wake up in Europe 800 years ago, it would be easy for us to see through all the lies people believed. But in the present moment, it's difficult to see the lies because we're like a fish that doesn't know it's in water. All the drama we create, all the violence and hatred, is because we believe our own lies and someone else's lies.

Ellen: I understand that, I think, more than a lot of people, being gay—it's going against what most of society is. I'm very aware that I'm different. I'm very aware that I don't fit in and that I'm not going along with the rules.

don Miguel: For thousands of years there have been lies about being gay or not being gay. If you know they're lies, you're free.


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