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Oprah: For me the biggest spiritual big moment was what I was describing earlier, that moment sitting in church listening to the preacher talk about the condemnation and judgmental God and me having that aha! epiphanal moment that how can God be love and condemning at the same time and then starting that path to recognize that God—God, all universal energy, all that is God, really does want me to have my best life and that that is why I'm here. To seek that and to achieve it to the best of my ability in co-creation with the greater good that is God.

Michael: Absolutely.

Oprah: That was my big revelation. And so I can accept the abundance that is offered because that's why it's offered to us. Yeah. Yes, you?

The Rev. Bacon: Yes, you. I've told many times, and you can hear that on a radio show that I did with Oprah, about when I was 5 years old being alone in a pine forest and being enveloped by love. By light. And realizing that I was the most beloved of all of God's creatures and at the same time that every other creature in God's universe was the most beloved.

Oprah: You really did have a Moses on the mountain moment. Yeah.

The Rev. Bacon: It was an epiphany.

Oprah: Yeah.

The Rev. Bacon: And it has charted my life. More recently, what is going on with me is to understand the radical nature of that, the truth of the interconnectivity of all of us and of the universe. My favorite quotation maybe of all is from Dr. King from the jail—Birmingham jail. Letters from the Birmingham jail. He says: "We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. What happens to one directly affects everyone indirectly." Now that is not only a truth, that is a power that wells up and speaks through people. I was not conscious that when we were doing the show last Wednesday that I would say anything about being gay is a gift from God. But those seven words have changed people's lives. And what happened was the unity, the interconnectivity of all of us, the belovedness of every human being was speaking through me. That didn't come from my brain. I didn't intend it. That came out there in that conversation, and something wonderful happened in a lot of people's lives. When you and I become an instrument of the deep interconnectivity of the cosmos and everything there is, miracles happen.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Oprah: "By you and I," you don't mean just you and him.

The Rev. Bacon: No, no, no, no, no.

Oprah: You meant you and all of us.

The Rev. Bacon: All of us.

Oprah: All of us have the ability to do that.

The Rev. Bacon: Absolutely. Every person.

Oprah: Not just men of the cloth.

Michael: I didn't mean to give you five.

Oprah: Not just men of the cloth. Yeah.  

The Rev. Bacon: No. This is about every—I believe that every person is a minister. Everybody is an instrument. Everyone is an instrument.

Oprah: Well, this show for me for years has been a ministry.

Michael: Absolutely.

Oprah: And that's when the show changed. The show changed for me when it stopped being—so that may have also been a great spiritual moment. The moment I recognized and literally had a meeting and said, "I'm not going to take this—you know, I'm going to take the high road. I'm going to stop doing confrontational television." And a lot of my sponsors and other television stations in different cities at the time were very upset with me. And I said, "I will either take this path or I will get out of television." So that was a—that was a big moment when I made the decision that I was going to use television for what I believed to be a greater good than be used by television.

Michael: Right.

Oprah: So that's—that's I think when a lot of things changed.

Michael: And that's changed millions and millions and millions of lives.

Oprah: Yeah. And changed my ability to stay in it. I wouldn't have been able to stay in it or stay with it. What's yours, Caroline?

The Rev. Bacon: That was your true self speaking.

Oprah: That was my true self.

The Rev. Bacon: That was your true self speaking.

Oprah: Yeah. That was my true self.

Caroline: I have to honestly say I'm actually furiously writing all your answers down and smiling so hugely because every single thing you say I related to each one of you. I've had all those moments. And, Oprah, when you said that you took the high road, it's like you followed your heart.

Oprah: Yeah.

Caroline: As pure as that was. And just the—you're so authentic and that's what everybody resonates with.

Oprah: Thank you for that.

Elizabeth: You know we use—

Oprah: I really was in the moment. I was in the moment. I remember being in the moment.

Caroline: It takes courage to do that.

Elizabeth: It does.

Oprah: I don't even think it does when you're in the moment. When you're there, I didn't think it was courage at all. I just knew that either I'm going to do it the way I feel I can sit in the space and be truthful with people or I can't do it. I have to find something else to do.

The Rev. Bacon: It's encouraging to other people, but it's not an act of courage in that moment.

Michael: I remember the moment when I said yes to starting Agape and I can remember—

Oprah: The church, yeah.

Michael: —people coming up to me. One of the—one person came up to me. "What are you doing? You're quitting your job? You have kids. You have a family. You're going to go out and just start this community?" And I remember saying to him, "I have no choice." It was a moment—

Oprah: Yeah.

Michael: —where I said yes.

The Rev. Bacon: Absolutely.

Michael: And that yes was bigger than any no and any maybe.

Oprah: Yeah.

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