Irkg1234 you said 'This seems written from a man's point of view.'

Well, uh, yeah. William is a man. We see it from his pov. And, of course, Mr Follet is a man.

I read a lot of female authors. Collectively their approach to graphic sex scenes is different. Like you, I noticed the difference in descriptions and approach - I didn't expect Mr Follet to write like a woman, or for a woman - it is a totally different genre with a universal audience.

And we must remember when this book was written - Diana Gabaldon defined a new genre that embraces both romance and historical fiction (with lots of steam!) (and she sets my standard for steam) but that was AFTER Pillars...

I thought the rape scenes and the sex in general were grubby, sleazy 20thC male mindset fantasy at work. The author seems to have a thing about breasts.... Made me want to go and wash after reading these scenes.

Rape is violent.
Don't give up on this book, it's so good, I'm glad to read that the whole world loves this book in so many counties.
It's not going to be for anyone, if it doesn't grab you after 50 pages, then it's time for another book.
But Pillars Of The Earth is my all time favorite novel.

The rape scenes, as well as all the violence was gratuitous and wholly unneccesary, extremely offensive and in no way advanced the plot. An author can write a scene like that into a book and save the reader those minute and disgusting details. Believe it or not MM Kaye has a rape scene in her book Trade Wind and she left it all up to the reader's imagination. We knew she was raped, but we didn't need to know the gory details. It's rather ironic how controversial that scene in MM Kaye's book was by some Amazon reviewers but not many people bat an eyelid over scenes like this. It's like the author got his kicks writing that stuff.

Again, I find the need to state that I felt the 'rape scenes' were both necessary to the character formation but were also written with respect for the reader.

Given some of the historical fiction I have read over the years, Mr. Follett was tame in his descriptions and his use of sexual scenes throughout the book. If it came across as brutal, that is merely a result of the fact that rape is brutal and, in the case of William and his vicitims, particuarly horrific given the fact that he felt no remorse. That was completely in keeping with his place in society and, at least for me, went a long way in forming my reaction to William as a character. A person in Williams place in society would not have given so much of an afterthought to raping someone he felt under him in social standing because he would not have seen them as humans worthy of any form of respect. It would have been no different than the mistreatment of black slaves we see in the social history of the American south. William also used rape as a means of gaining control over Richard and as a means of reinforcing to Aliena that she was no longer held the protection of her father and his social standing. It served to shatter any illusions she might have kept about what her role in society would be from then on and it was also the catalyst that caused her to instantly grow up and try to take control of her future.

Sex would have been one of the few luxuries that the lower classes would have had in their lives and contrary to what one might think, it was not something that was hidden behind closed doors or only experienced within the confines of marriage. Sex would have been everywhere in their lives: from the animals in the field to the parents in the house. Couples could go their whole lives and never be properly married - for a variety of reasons and no one would have thought the lesser of them. A proper marriage was the luxury of the rich or the lucky and it might surprise some to know that our uptight attitudes towards it, come more from our Puritan ancestors 500 years later and not the 12th century.

My love of history left me looking for good historical fiction at a young age. What I found instead were shelves of the genre 'historical romance' I once emailed one of my favourite authors and asked her why she chose romance over fiction, given that historical accuracy resounded throughout her work. She replied that when she initially tried to write historical fiction, her editor told her there was no market for it. Only by clouding it with romance and sex scenes, would she be able to sell copies. Authors merely respond to their anticipated audience. If one feels that there is too much sex in this book ( I disagree) than it is merely a result of the fact that readers won't buy books without it and a good editor won't recommend an author write without including it. Authors often find they must make concessions to see that their work sees the public light. If sex sells, then that is because we, as a socieity, have dictated it be so. It hardly seems fair to condemn an author for using what sells.

You may be right, perhaps sex sells, at least for the vast majority. However, not every one likes so much sex in a book, especially in such extreme disgusting details as this book contains. Yes, there were bad guys in medieval times. Yes they raped the women, especially the lower class women. Were such minute disgusting details necessary to get that point across?

I purchased this book based upon a recommendation of an Amazon reviewer who has virtually the same tastes in books as I do, and because of that I did not take the time to research the book more thoroughly than I usually do. I should have looked at ALL THE REVIEWS, not just the five star ones. If I had, I would have seen that this book was not to my taste, or at the very least got it from the library and not wasted my money.

As a side note, I have posted a review on Amazon expressing my opinions on this book and surprisingly it has received many more helpful votes, and many less negative votes than I would have expected, especially something carrying the name of Oprah. I also see from reviews of this book and his new one, that others are shocked at the extreme sex and violence as well, men included.

My main point being, the consumer has the right to know what's in the package before they make that buying decision.

Excuse me, but I just don't seem to be seeing what you are seeing. Are we reading the same book? I would hardly say this book is riddled with sex and violence - in fact, I had always thought Mr. Follett was quite respectful with regards to such matters. Perhaps I have become desensitized? I don't think so, but I now wonder why I am not equally insulted by the tone of this book?

Dr Wolseley! I welcome your expertise as well as your defense for Ken Follett's Pillar Of The Earth. I enjoyed reading your post about whether a fiction book is historically accurate or not. And I love your response towards the angry readers who can't see past some of the things that really bother them about the book rather than focus on the book for discussion towards this book club message board. I feel that some folks get stuck or hung up on something and then they can't see past it to enjoy the real purpose of a bookclub discussion of the story of the book that is currently being read.
I read POTE in the 1990's, and fell in love with it. I have always loved cathedrals, and I was raised in Germany, and as a child, one of my favorite things to visit was the cathedral in the town I was born in. I always wondered why they were built and as I got grew up I learned more about history and got my answers.
So when this fiction book was written, it was a delight for me, to read how it must have been to live in that time period. That book inspired me to take history classes such as ancient civilization and art history. So I am rereading POTE right now and I'm only on Chapter 5 but I am enjoying every pageagain! '
Thank you for your insights on the book and it's nice to hear that someone else loves this book as well.

I have actually read Trade Wind and had a much bigger problem with that rape scene because Hero later falls in love with Rory and they end up together and he is kind of the male hero of the story so in order to really like the guy you have to kind of assume or hope he didn't really rape her but just kind of got her to give in or something. In Pillars you are supposed to hate William and boy do you ever really really hate him.

Point taken, but I'm curious as to how you (and others) feel about all those glorifed soap opera super couples who began as rapist/rape victims. Luke and Laura. Patch and Kayla. And lord knows how many others that I can't think of right now. No matter how you view it as opposed to me, MM Kaye left the rape BEHIND THE BEDROOM DOORS and didn't give us a graphic play by play in excruciating detail, as you see in POTE.

I agree with your posting 100%. I felt such anger regarding William in the rape scene that I couldn't believe that I was becoming that emotionally involved in a fictional story. This anger has stayed with me so that now every time the William's name comes up in the book I feel absolute loathing towards him.

I totally agree with you on that. I am just starting the first chapter that introduces William and his evilness. Reading about his character just makes me cringe.

But isn't that the sheer brilliance of the book? I had never felt so strong an emotion as I felt the day I read about William Hamleigh. I didn't think it was impossible that a fictional character could elicit that level of response from me and I could just feel the frustration and the humilitation that must have stayed with Aliena and others. It made me feel truly impotent - I felt such rage that women could be treated like this - I just wanted to jump into the book and do something! anything! But then...I realized....Gosh, Sheila...this is just a book!!! And that is when I realized how fantastic these characters were. Mr. Follett has been so clever in having us buy into these characters as people and I would put forth that this is solely a result of his incredible knack for writing such scenes. Had he just written 'And then William took Aliena into the back chamber and raped her", would we have ever hated William and his cronies the way we do? That is why this scene is so critical and so well written - it draws us in and allows us to project such fierce emotion on a person that exists no where beyond the pages of a book. For me - this is it - this is the reason why I feel equally as passionate about this book!~

mertyworld,

Pillars has been my favorite book since the day I read it 16 years ago. As a matter of fact it is one of 3 books that I have ever read twice and am considering reading it again as it's been about 5 years or so since my last reading. I have easily purchased this book 2 dozen times for friends, family and customers when I find out that they haven't read it. I tend to buy 2 or 3 copies a year. The squirmish tend to pause at the begining with the "hanging / chicken curse" , (oh brother) but I persist and when they listen they have come back to me to thank me 100% of the time agreeing that they loved it too. I have 3 copies in my car right now ready to give out with 1 already earmarked for a customer of mine. Back in September I won a first edition hardcover on ebay. It was then that I found out about the sequel! The reason I want to read Pillars again now is because I just finished it, the sequel. It brought up the same emotions as Pillars and cost me much sleep. That says alot in itself becasue I suffer frequently from insomnia and treasure the nights when I know I will sleep but even on those nights I would still choose to read this new book over sleep! I love it and thoroughly enjoyed it and will reccomend it with as much enthusiasm as I've had for Pillars. I purchased it the day it was released in the USA 10-10-07 as I wanted a first edition hardcover and I wanted it NOW you know what I mean? World Wthout End. Get it asap! THANK YOU KEN FOLLETT!!

Life gets in the way, and I just want to re-read Pillars! Lucky you, to get first edition copies of your favorite book.
I finally went out and got the sequel. It is waiting to be read!!! I was so thrilled when Oprah announced Pillars as her new bookclub book!!!!