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The Power of Debate

dangerange
Level 5

Posted on Mar 23, 2008 10:38 PM

This is from a highly realized Tibetan Monk, Choden Rinpoche:

What you would consider a good debater is a person who, when debating on a given subject, can point out to the other person their mistaken view; you can debate it by being able to explain why theirs is not the correct view, using logic, reasoning, and by quoting scriptural authority. By the way you debate you show them their wrong view and they can completely give it up. That’s the sign of a good debater: being able to enlighten the opponent to their fault and create the basis of the correct understanding through logic and scriptural understanding.

With debate, you develop a very stable conviction yourself of what you understand because you use the logic, reasoning and scriptural authority. When you’re able to do that, then whatever understanding you have is very firm in your mind [and therefore is a basis for realizations].

Generally it is said in the debating courtyards of the monasteries [the ritual gesture of] simply clapping your hands in debate just once has more benefit than meditating for many years – such is the power of debate.


After the Chinese invasion in 1959, Choden Rinpoche spent 19 years in meditation, not ever leaving his room. He now teaches at Sera Je Monastery in India in the Geshe program. A Geshe Degree takes 30 years to complete - the US equivalent of 4 PhDs.
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Replies: 11
chose2be
Level 4
1. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 1:00 PM   |   In response to: dangerange

I was taught that in debate, you must know your opponents views as well as your own, be able to "switch sides". The debate is not to speak to your opponent, but speak to the "crowd" and let them hear the exchange and wisdom of both sides. I think the New Earth debate should be inclusive all of ideas. That's our problem, always has been ... we are exclusive rather than inclusive. The world would not end if there is truth is every opinion ... It would be better. That's what debate was intended to achieve, to hear the truth in every opinion.

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realager
Level 5
2. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 2:28 PM   |   In response to: dangerange

A little more education from our favorite Buddhist ... :-) ... thanks for posting ...

I have been reading the wikipedia on Buddhism that you recommended ... still soaking it in ... so many cultural filters in world's religions ...

I post the following for Tibet ... (I was encouraged to see Nancy Pelosi, even though political, make a public stance by her visit with DL)

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Peace to you, dangerange ...

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dangerange
Level 5
3. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 3:12 PM   |   In response to: realager

Do a search on You Tube for "Monks debate" - the way the Tibetans debate ever single point of their system is very compelling - it's rather different than being told to "have faith". And it's an exciting thing to watch! The jump around and hit their hands when they make a point. They prove to themselves that it's the truth. If it can't be proven, or doesn't make logical sense, they don't believe it. They automatically accept science because it's proven with evidence. The Dalai Lama has attended a neuroscience conference to discuss the nature of consciousness and the brain.

YAY NANCY PELOSI!!!!

It's great that she was there at the right time... China was appalling to their own people (Tiananmen Sq, the Falun Gong) - and they've been appalling to the Tibetans for 50 years.

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realager
Level 5
4. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 3:22 PM   |   In response to: dangerange

OK ... I look at the "YouTube Monks" some time this week ...

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dangerange
Level 5
5. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 4:01 PM   |   In response to: realager

I just went and watched some of the videos - you'd never know they were talking about the highest levels of consciousness... they're jumping around and laughing and smacking each other on the head!

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elderbury
Level 1
6. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 4:08 PM   |   In response to: dangerange

I just watched some of the videos. How fun and interesting.

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realager
Level 5
7. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 24, 2008 4:08 PM   |   In response to: dangerange

fwiw ...

I went to Cambodia in 1995 ... and the Khmer heading up the economic team I was on (during a day trip through Phnom Penh) introduced me to a bunch of monks at the local temple and monastery ... all them Buddhists in sapphron colored robes bowing ... they were very nice to me and respectful (despite me being very western and American and standing in the middle of their temple) ...

I have never forgotten that ... they basically respected my spirit first ... and that's what left the impression (imo) ...

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uareunique
Level 3
8. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 26, 2008 10:28 AM   |   In response to: dangerange

dangerange wrote:This is from a highly realized Tibetan Monk, Choden Rinpoche:

What you would consider a good debater is a person who, when debating on a given subject, can point out to the other person their mistaken view; you can debate it by being able to explain why theirs is not the correct view, using logic, reasoning, and by quoting scriptural authority. By the way you debate you show them their wrong view and they can completely give it up. That’s the sign of a good debater: being able to enlighten the opponent to their fault and create the basis of the correct understanding through logic and scriptural understanding.

...Generally it is said in the debating courtyards of the monasteries [the ritual gesture of] simply clapping your hands in debate just once has more benefit than meditating for many years – such is the power of debate.
Very interesting, dangerange, as is the name you use, I need to meet danger head on at times in order to see what it is showing me.
For me, debating is bringing forth differing points of view, and an opprtunity to change mine if the other feels more inclusive.
I also like the clapping of hands, tapping on head etc. since this brings one back to the body and presence. I saw some monks doing a debate once and will check U Tube.
When one identifies with their own point of view and is caught in ego, the debate can become an argument... a war... and as such, will simply reflect back to me the war within...

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uareunique
Level 3
9. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 26, 2008 10:29 AM   |   In response to: chose2be

chose2be wrote:I was taught that in debate, you must know your opponents views as well as your own, be able to "switch sides". The debate is not to speak to your opponent, but speak to the "crowd" and let them hear the exchange and wisdom of both sides.
(___) :x

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dangerange
Level 5
10. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 27, 2008 9:56 AM   |   In response to: uareunique

I like that they retain their good humor in being proven wrong.

Tibetans are good at keeping their humor under duress.

About the war inside:

Someone asked the Dalai Lama, "Why didn't you fight back against the Chinese?"
The Dalai Lama looked down, swung his feet just a bit, then looked back up at us and said with a gentle smile,
"Well, war is obsolete, you know."
Then, after a few moments, his face grave, he said,
"Of course the mind can rationalize fighting back... but the heart, the heart would never understand.
Then you would be divided in yourself, the heart and the mind, and the war would be inside you."

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angelwitha
Level 4
11. Re: The Power of Debate
Mar 27, 2008 10:04 AM   |   In response to: dangerange

Someone asked the Dalai Lama, "Why didn't you fight back against the Chinese?"
The Dalai Lama looked down, swung his feet just a bit, then looked back up at us and said with a gentle smile,
"Well, war is obsolete, you know."
Then, after a few moments, his face grave, he said,
"Of course the mind can rationalize fighting back... but the heart, the heart would never understand.
Then you would be divided in yourself, the heart and the mind, and the war would be inside you."



dangeranger.....thank you so much for sharing.....it's truly tragic what has happend to the demontrating monks......this personifies the inner battle within all humans.....the mind disconnected with our hearts.....

THANK YOU

-Angela

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