Good morning friends --- while I have been sleeping peacefully on the East Coast of Canada, you folks in other time zones have been alert and active! Good message to me -- the world goes on turning with or without us! Quite a diverse body of opinions here lately! Some would seem to be very far apart. Let me take a run at this. From one point of view it would seem that spiritual people just keep on trying to come together, but end up butting heads on some level and then moving away with hurting souls. This is a useful thing to pay attention to, because it puts the finger on what I see as a central prolem in most allChristian Churches, and perhaps all religions -- and that is the tendency of "all or nothing" --- you are either "for me or against me". (True of politics too!) About 40 years ago there was a big drive in the Christian community -- the Ecumenical Movement. It was not an attempt at actual unity of body, but more an attempt to explore and celebrate one' another's thoughts, ideas, traditions and ways. That sort of ran out of steam, especially when the Roman Catholic Church drew back, when a change of leadership took place. One pharse that stands out in my mind from these Ecumenical times was " Let us have Togetherness In Diversity." I liked that then -- I like it now. And for my part, if the Church Universal can't make this work then it doesn't deserve to continue. A number of you have mentioned that you appreciate the civility of this post (a bit tattered as time went on!) To me, civility is one of the most outstanding qualities that defines both Canada and The United States -- at their best, not worst. Further, I believe that without civility, there is no chance of preventing a totally fractured planet. (What does the word civility give rise to? Civilization of course -- civilization implies civility in our human exchanges with each other, whether in Government Church or elsewhere.) In the spirit of ecumenicity (alive still) and civility (tatterd but still alive) I believe that people of extremely diverse ideas and traditions can sit down together, talk, relate, love, do joint work together, and treat each other as beloved brothers and sisters. If the Church is unable to do this it will fade away as a curious relic of the past, and some other mechanism will come forth to do the work that the world needs doing.
Re- Henri Nouwen -- A man I love dearly -- read most of his books. We have a Canadian hero - Jean Vanier who established an organization "L'Arche" (The Ark -- a group home concept for the severely disabled -- now world wide. Henri lived in one of those homes for a time, shortly before he died. His writings are monumental -- mt favourite is "Reaching Out" -- which for me defines not only the Church, but life itself.
liana dear soul! Please do not be discouraged. The other posters really do not mean to hurt your feelings -- it is their way of thinking and feeling, and it is as right for them as your lovely convictions are for you. I have know many people like your friend, who you care for deeply --- if you can find this in your own heart and strength, I suggest that you give him all the "deep listening time" that you are able to, without thinking that you need to help him out in any other way. He will have to sort out his own beliefs and emotions, as we all must. You however might be a powerful catalyst simply by listening--- it is an incredibly poweful form of caring. If you can find it, take a look at my posting on Dialogue, which is rattling arpound somewhere. If we cannot learn to dialogue with each other, -- in civility and honesty -- then not only is The Church a lost cause --- but civilization itself is a lost cause. Check the daily news as affirmation of this. Blessings to all --- thank youach one for sepaking from your hearts -- in civility mostly -- and I look forward to hearing the best wisdom that each of you can caringly share.

Hi,

I have decided to stay after reading the reply from my bible quoting poster last night and sleeping on it. I also finalized my decision based on Debbie and Planetarie's replies. No meanness intended in my comment just stating a fact. I will admit I have not read the bible from cover to cover and may never will either. The parts I have seen people reading during my life time were never very positive always finding the evil or bad in something different always negative. I also have to remember that the bible is a book written by humans saying they were guided by God or Jesus just like Tolle's or any other books on spirituality I have read. So anything I read I do not take to heart that it is the 'truth' but take the information and think this is interesting. I may never think about what I read again until I encounter it in life. Sometimes that takes a couple of times because for the most part I spend most of my time in my right brain. The left brain appears when I am on this board or taking a test which is frustrating considering when I study it is all in my right brain. LOL

The religion area is not only his pain body but mine also. That I have known since the day I discovered its origins. But I will not explain it here maybe in another post labeled as such and how I learned of it. The reasons being is it may offend some on this post and I do not want to start any confrontations on it. That is part of the reason why I was upset with the post other than my friend would only set he 'God does judge' part in it and it would send him in a tail spin and reaffirm the very thing that tares him apart or he lets it anyways.

I have sat silently with my friend, his name is Jorgen, listening to his frustrations and thoughts. Letting him throw all kinds of things out there and even having him go so far as to say, 'I do not think you know what you want'. I say, 'who are you to know what I want and need'. Him holding me and I holding him. He also says things like, 'I am bad and I have done things that are wrong and sinful'. So I say did you do it again and again? He says no but it does not matter I will be judged and not go to heaven. I said so what about me? He says, 'You will be all right I knew better and should not have done it'. I said, 'Now that seems hypocritical you are condemned because you were taught to know better, but I am not because I was not taught?' He shrugs his shoulders. I look at him and say I was born knowing better inherently I did not need to have this idea of right and wrong or what is and is not pounded in my head. I instinctively knew so it does not get me off the hook based on our differences in beliefs. My thoughts and I have shared them with him is that he wants this storybook life and relationship based on what he thinks others think is right. He wants to marry in the church I can not be because I am also divorced. My beliefs alone they would not ok the marriage because I could not lie about who I am just to pacify others. I am a truth seeker and speaker and I live by those standards. I call a spade a spade and I try to not to be swayed by others when it does not flow with my inner being.

My friend and I have a connection that is unbelievably wonder if he could just get through all of this. I know about and understand this connection and what it means I did not for 9 months. It has only been the past two months did I discover it. It explains a lot of what I was feeling and why I struggle with just walking away from him. From the day we first saw each other it was an attraction and he even does not deny it and it goes way beyond physical yet he has trouble with that part. I have tried to explain it to him in terms he would understand and it is not easy. He looks me in the eyes and it is like he sees my soul which is also part of his soul like he is looking for an answer that he is trying to find. His eyes dart away from others yet with me he locks on mine. Most people would be bothered by it even I admit if someone else would do that to me I would have difficulty with it. In the animal world that is challenging the other being a sort of pecking order perse.

I know I am here on this particular post for several reasons and will stay for those reasons also. I hope to learn much and share much. Sorry if I get windy just the way I am. If I try to shorten things up then I miss stuff. LOL

Love & Light

Liana

Planitarie~
There is bound to be resistance. A group of people from church myself and my father included, started a evening spiritual group which followed the teachings of Edgar Cayce.Oh my gosh, did we ever get a talking to. But the meetings continued, and were very helpful. Heavy sigh.. When searching deep into my being for an answer, it seems that what appears to get in the way is control. Any organized anything seems to thrive on power, control and on the need to be the one and only way. This philosophy needs to be lifted before we can all join together in a universal oneness. So, I guess I am not just talking about organized religion, I am talking about any orginization that professes to be the "only" way.
I hope this made sense.
In Peace,
^j^

What a good and thought-provoking question... I wantt yo put this in a positve context. I am a Christian, currently attending a Unitarian Universalist Church. Are you familiar with that? I was not... previously... I hope that the christian Church can use these spiritually awakened persons... but I think it will depend on the church. Every church is just an extension of peoples, little societies... Some are fear based, some are closed, some are open, some are rising to the challenges in huge and amazing ways... It will also depend on the person. Some are able to assimilate these teachings into their church's doctrine and personal beliefs... for them this book is like a booster shot. But others may be forced to chose which path, if teh paths can not coexist... If the church will use them, it would be a great asset in reaching the goal of a New Earth ( physical realm) and a New Heaven(transformed consciousness) . Personally, I believe in one God that is accessible by all peoples. I want to NOT judge others and their beliefs. I want to live every moment, and do my best to love others as Jesus' example, which is the doctrine I have grown up with, and the path that I know. My Christian church failed me and my needs, and it caused great diillusionment in me. So, from my personal experience, it is a mixture of Universalist teachings, Biblical teachings, meditation, this book and book club... a perhaps strange blend . Love and peace! Susan

Debbie,

Are we from the same place? You arte describing me. Please see my comments in teh main thread.

Susan in theh South

Yes , that is where my husband and I have been going since the first of the year. Maybe outfall of ANE will bring a lot of understanding and support to this branch of faith.

That is an awesome and egoless statement, coming from a pastor. I hope you can help dispel some of the paranoia coming from many conservative grooups. Please spread the word! It means so much coming from teh clergy! Where is your church? we are all coming!!!

Hi buzz,

You have a very valid point in what you say. I am in agreement with it and it makes sense to me. I have friends who are wiccan not many though and they tried to get me to join and create a coven even though the original intent out loud anyways is to have an ecclectic group to share all thoughts and feelings on spirituality. I adamanetly say no everytime and have tried to go to group meetings and end up leaving and not wanting to go back. All of them are good people and each to their own when it comes to a path, but it is not mine. They do not consider themselves a religion (I think it is lol) but they do have rules, power, and control over things and in place rituals or prayers. My friend Jessica calls me a 'free spirit' and anything or anyone that tries to confine me to limitations usually causes my soul to tell my body to run.

I have read books on Edgar Cayce and have liked it. But then I am open to anything that expands and opens the mind and consciousness to my subsconscious and my heart and to my urge to move forward and beyond. Something i feel deep inside, but when this shift to 'universal oneness' occurs those who are not in the element of it and can not shake the 'organization' of something the wanting power, control, the one and only way will not be with us. Mostly because the earth is also shifting in consciousness and she will only allow those who are in the same frequency as her to be with her if that makes any sense. She is preparing for it already too many strange and out of the 'ordinary' things going on to ignore.

Love & Light
Liana

Liana -- how glad I am that you decided to stick around! Your posting is very much from the heart, From what you describe my understanding is that your friend is absolutley paralyzed with fear at a variety of levels. Unless somehow he can face his fears and detoxify them, you will have little success I expect, in changing his obsessional patterns, which he would have developed as a result of underlying fear. Tolle's discussion of the fear-body is absolutely brilliant in understanding this --- and if you choose to pursue this relationship, I think it essential that you understand this phenomnenon and its dynamics. Mounds of love given will not solve this sort of issue I feel --- simply because love cannot be received in any amount if we think we are undeserving of love.
Although this is not an Ann Landers advice column, perhaps these thoughts will be useful -- and others will no doubt have some insights to share. You are courageous to tell a story which is painful to you.
buzz1byme - your comments are always intelligent and delightful!

Susan - The Unitarian - Universalist Church in Canada is quite small, but I am aware of its origins and its noble heritage. Do you suppose that God must laugh about the solemn debates that have gone on --- and still do --- about how many persons he has, what he is like, etc. etc. I have read the medieval discussions about this, and it is mind-numbing. How wise the Old Testament Jews were to forbid the pronouncing of any name for God --- knowing that his name was too mysterious to put into words. To divide him into three persons would not only have been outrageous to them, they would have split their sides laughing at the pretentiousness of THAT undertaking! Peace and joy to all!

I guess it's good to notice these things about ourselves. That must be part of the transformation.

It seems to me that Tolle would say that the Bible and Jesus are not The Truth, but each is a hand that points to The Truth.

What I don't understand -- while trying to accept that it is the ego's need to understand -- is what are people doing here, in this particular place who don't want to go down this road and who seem intent on making themselves right and others wrong -- others being people who don't buy into their particular words about The Truth. Tolle's book seems to encourage us to see that all of these things -- words, doctrines, religion, Bible, Jesus, our words about Jesus, etc. can never be The Truth or capture The Truth, which can never truly be captured (good word for it!).

Let me try to say this in a more "enlightened" way than I usually would: I feel weariness in my body and spirit when my ego (that wants to be right about tolerance of all viewpoints) meets ego that wants to be right that some people are right and other people are wrong. Tolle speaks to the Jesus saying of "I am the way ... (etc.)" and you might not agree with his take on it. Still, I came here to see what I could learn from the book and from people who are on that journey.

An answer to the original question of this board -- "Will the Christian church be a vehicle for enlightenment?" -- as long as "being Christian" means that some are in and some are out, then no, the church cannot be the vehicle for enlightenment that Tolle describes. (In my opinion ... which is, of course, more ego ... and I'm seeing that! ;-))

Sunday Shalom,
RevMom

Liana~
May peace abound. You are a shining spirit. Your light is a gift to many. Keep the faith!
^j^

Planetarie,

I completely understand what you are saying about his fears and feelings of not deserving of love. I know and with regret will not beable to break through to him no matter the amount of love I give and show him. So far it has not work and he knows how much I love him. That in a nutshell is my frustration with it all and where my heart breaks. My hope was that other christians like himself would be able to help me when I am around him to say or do things that would break through this paralization of his at least maybe give him some Ahha moments. It is amazing wha tforms they come to us in. He does listen and is influenced I have noticed and he eccos it back, especially if I say it. LOL But I understand why for I am a influence on him in ways only I, his soul, my soul, and the creator ( my name for God, it seems more neutral to me and not so male oriented) knows. I want to give him this book but I am afraid he will not read it or it will make him worse because he will see it like a few christians on here do as something not believable and will condemn him. My hope is that his guide and his soul will keep knocking at his back and front door until he can no longer ignore it and do something.

I look forward to other posters thoughts and just keep doing what I am doing. Because I am in full swing of this 'enlightenment' and 'the shift in consciousness' that is ahead for there is no turning back now for me.

Love & Light
Liana

Liana
My mother was born in England in the late 40's, to a full blooded Cockney dad and a full blooded Irish mum. What a combo. She went to Catholic church and school and lived life with the fear of God in her heart. One day at about the age of five, my sweet and innocent mother asked her teacher this question, "If we are only to pray to one God, why do we have so many statues?" For that she got her wrists smacked with a ruler, was ridiculed in front of the entire class, and was made to sit in the corner for the rest of the day. Nice.
Upon marrying and moving to the States, mom continued to attend Catholic Church and she raised all of her children as Catholics. When we were grown and old enough to make our own choices, mom stopped going to church for a while. She was evaluating her belief system and trying to deal with the questions in her mind regarding her religious beliefs and choices. She realized that nobody should be afraid of their belief system. No one should live in fear that they would go here or there if they did not do this or that. At that moment a great burden was lifted. Mom realized after all of those years of living in fear, that she had a choice. It was at that time that she started exploring her options of where to go for worship. She found her niche and even got my father to join her. They are both in the choir, my father is a deacon, and my mother, in her kind and loving way is an evangelist of sorts . She is in a congregation where everyone knows each other, a warm and loving community. One of her wishes was that when she dies, the person guiding the service would know her name, would know her heart, would know her soul. She has gotten her wish, God bless her. My beutiful, wonderful, mother, no longer fears religion or God. What a blessing.
Love and prayerful thoughts to you and your friend. It will work out.
All the best,
Buzz~~....